Global Courant
White House National Security Council spokesman John Kirby on Sunday defended President Biden’s controversial decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine.
“This is about keeping Ukraine in the fight. You were just there. You talked to President Zelenskyy about the counter-offensive, and in some ways it’s not going as fast as he would like,” Kirby told host Martha Raddatz during an appearance on ABC’s “This Week.” “They’re using artillery at a very rapid rate, Martha, many thousands of rounds a day. This is literally a firefight in – all the time, from the Donbas, all the way down in the direction of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. And so they run out of stock.”
“We’re trying to ramp up our production of the kind of artillery shells they use most. But that production is still not where we wanted it to be,” Kirby added. “So we’re going to see these additional artillery shells with cluster bombs in them to bridge the gap as we ramp up production of regular 155 artillery shells.”
The munitions – which detonate in mid-air and release dozens of smaller bombs – are seen by the US as a way to give Kiev much-needed munitions to bolster its offensive and push through Russian front lines. US leaders debated the thorny issue for months before Biden made the final decision last week.
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The decision comes on the eve of the NATO summit in Lithuania, where Biden is likely to face questions from allies about why the US would send a weapon to Ukraine that more than two-thirds of alliance members have banned because it has a track record. which resulted in many civilian casualties.
National Security Council spokesman John Kirby speaks during the daily briefing at the White House, June 26, 2023. (AP Photo/Susan Walsh)
“It took me a while to be convinced to do it,” Biden told CNN in an interview that aired Sunday morning. He added that he eventually took the Defense Department’s recommendation to supply the munitions to heart and discussed the matter with allies and lawmakers on the Hill. He said that “the Ukrainians are running out of ammunition” and that the cluster bombs will provide a temporary solution to help stop Russian tanks.
On Sunday, Kirby went on to argue that the US is sending Ukraine “cluster munitions” because we don’t have enough of the kind of munitions they need.
“I want to ask you why the US has never banned them before. They clearly pose a threat to civilians if they don’t explode. Why doesn’t the US ban them, period?” asked Raddatz.
National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan speaks during the daily press briefing at the White House, July 7, 2023. (Drew Angerer/Getty Images)
“We are very aware of the concerns about civilian casualties and unexploded ordnance being picked up and injured by civilians or children. Of course we are aware of that,” Kirby replied. “And we’re going to focus on Ukraine with demining efforts. In fact, we’re doing it now, and we’ll do it when wartime conditions allow. But this munitions does provide usable battlefield capability.”
Kirby added that Russia also uses cluster munitions, but “in an aggressive war against another country and kills civilians indiscriminately”, while Ukrainians “will use them to defend their own territory and hit Russian positions”.
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And I think we can all agree that there are more civilians and will be killed by Russian forces – be it cluster munitions, drones, missile strikes or just plain frontal strikes – than are likely to be injured from the use of these cluster munitions fired at Russian positions within Ukrainian territory,” he added.
Pentagon spokesman Air Force Brig. Gene. Patrick Ryder, speaking at a press briefing, Thursday, July 6, 2023. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)
Kirby said Biden now wants to focus on Ukraine winning the war against Russia before the Kyiv government achieves NATO membership. Granting membership to Ukraine now, Kirby warned, would mean “NATO is at war with Russia,” noting that the US and its allies want to give Ukraine room to work on political and economic reform, as well as good governance .
Looking ahead to Biden’s trip to Vilnius, Kirby anticipated: “You will also see a concerted, unified approach from all allies to make it clear that NATO will ultimately be Ukraine’s future, and that between the time of the end of the war and that happens, that the Allies will continue to help Ukraine defend itself.”
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Raddatz also pressed the National Security Council spokesman for reports that some former senior US officials associated with the Council on Foreign Relations apparently met with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov in April. Kirby argued that National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan was not involved and did not participate in those meetings.
“The president is making it clear that we will not have talks with Russia about ending this war without Ukraine at the table,” Kirby said.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Danielle Wallace is a reporter for Fox News Digital covering politics, crime, police and more. Story tips can be sent to danielle.wallace@fox.com and on Twitter: @danimwallace.
